Building brand awareness, testing data-driven creative, and developing client trust with ChatterBlast Media

Jessica Gondolfo:
Hey there. Welcome back to the Marketing Intelligence Show. My name is Jess and I'm the head of US Marketing here at Supermetrics. In today's episode, we're going to hear from Joe Mineo, the Associate Director of Ads and Analytics at ChatterBlast on how he's using data to empower and deliver advanced analytics to his clients.

Hey Joe, welcome to the Marketing Intelligence show.

Read the ChatterBlast case study to discover how they cut reporting time by 70% and saw a 5x ROI using Supermetrics.

Joe Mineo:
Pleasure to be here.

Jessica Gondolfo:
Amazing. Yeah, so I tell us a little about ChatterBlast. What do you do there as the director of ads and analytics?

Joe Mineo:
Of course. Yeah. ChatterBlasts is a digital media company established in 2009. Our goal is to help clients navigate areas like social media, brand presence, live event marketing, digital advertising, copy, creative video production, pretty much everything under the sun. And we pair our core services with specialized programs to offer a uniquely creative and analytical approach. So think of everything that you'd think of with a normal agency, but we take a different tact and we get a lot more personal with our clients. We try to think outside the box. I know a lot of agencies say that they do, but if you saw our work, you'd definitely understand the different tack that we take.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's amazing.

Joe Mineo:
And what I do on a daily basis is everything paid and digital analysis, so campaign strategy, campaign creation, editing, reporting, making sure clients' goals are being met, budgets are tracked, and making sure that their websites are actually turning out results for them.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's awesome, I'm very excited to get into this topic, but you have a background in broadcasting operations, is that correct?

Joe Mineo:
Yeah, so I graduated from Ron University in South southern New Jersey in 2013, graduated with radio tv, film production was my track and I always wanted to be a radio DJ or a radio producer. I loved making commercials and stuff and so I got to work with KYW News Radio right out of college and was super excited to join and then realized that my path was very limited. The radio industry is very volatile in some ways, and as much as I loved working with that organization, I kind of had to figure out a different path for myself just because of the realities. And so I was working in the commercial traffic department, which is organizing commercials and making sure the schedules ran, checking the logs and stuff like that. And I was just always passionate and curious about how to optimize those commercial schedules, A for revenue and B for clients.

So of course my bosses loved me because I was trying to pack as much commercials as we could in the limited time that we had. And then I started looking into the digital side. I saw that that was expanding and we had some really great people on the digital side that helped coach me through and kind of train me up on some things and it just kind of led me on this path towards operating on the digital side, got some experience there and just kind of fell in love with advertising and analytics as a whole and revamped their processes and started delivering on monthly reports that showed how each channel in our six station cluster was doing so that the salespeople could go out and sell products. It was just a really, really interesting shift away from production, which is so not cookie cutter into something a lot more cookie cutter and it was just a natural progression but unnatural in a lot of different ways. It forced me to work outside of my skillset.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's really interesting. I always ask that question because it's so few times that I get someone who's like, I graduated with a marketing degree and I went directly into marketing and did this. It's always, I get these very, I saw how I could influence marketing from my background that was far away from it. So I think it's such an interesting journey there. And you did teach yourself sequel, is that true?

Joe Mineo:
Yes. Yeah, so I didn't have a lot of coding experience going into Chatter blast in 2018 and all of my coding experience really was based around the MySpace days when you had to create your own profile and I used to copy people's code bases, paste it onto my profile, switch around the pictures and stuff and kind of figure out HTML that way. And as I got to chatter blasts, I started realizing there's a lot more opportunities with code that you can just start searching for code and stuff like that and building your skill level. And as we started working out our data practice, SQL was just there and I was like, I need better ways to do this outside of what's available in Looker studio. Looker Studio actually created this great base of knowledge because working with Supermetrics as well, blending data, moving data and creating categories and specific key fields and parameters, all of that stuff is in sql. And so when I started just taking a couple of courses here and there, it started clicking and it started making sense and little by little it took about I'd say six months to a year before I really got decent at it and I still wouldn't say that I'm good at it a couple of years later, but it was just a natural progression again out of nature and the force of habit of having to implement these practices.

Jessica Gondolfo:
Actually that makes me feel better because when you mentioned that to me, you inspired me, I was like, you know what? This is a great skill. You should have this. And so I looked up enhancing your SQL skills and the courses that I was then sent to, I realized that I needed to redo my Google search too, the very first basic course that was out there and I was like, oh man, this is going to be a journey. It was like you could learn this in five hours and I was like, that is a lot.

Joe Mineo:
It's definitely a journey and I'd say from working with JavaScript and HTML, it's a lot easier. SQL is probably the easiest coding language to learn and it's very intimidating, but it's also very user-friendly because everything is select from where and if you can understand how to select a piece of data from a dataset where here are your details and criteria for crunching it down, that's the easiest explanation I could say about SQL and that's pretty much all we do.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's so funny. No, well just know you've inspired me and I will get back to you in six months and tell you where I am on this journey.

Since you are analyzing so much data, what do you think, well actually, what are the top three things that clients are asking you for, like they are coming in and asking you for that you are helping them solve today?

Joe Mineo:
Of course.

So impact in their market. So we have a lot of corporations that are looking to communicate the value of their products and services to customers, communicate that value to community leaders, thought leaders, investors.
They also look for impact on their bottom line, so looking to increase applications, purchases, downloads, and how to track that As tech evolves, especially since third party pixels are going away, how do we track this just because of third party pixels are going away, it doesn't mean you stop tracking it. There's still ways to do that.

And then third is impact on their processes. So a lot of what we do is cleaning up access points. I can't tell you how many conversations I've had in the past six months about getting Facebook pages into a proper business manager, which it's been 10 years of hair pulling to get that done, but there's a lot of companies that just look to us to help operationalize that stuff, create content calendars, manage complex projects, help organizations just do more than they thought possible and they look to us for that. We were pretty good at it.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's super interesting actually, the impact on the market that is very interesting because I don't hear that often and then the processes, like the operational side of things, I have yet to be in a business that is not consistently approving operations. Even here we get something, it's great and then the next quarter we're like, how do we continue to make this better and have better naming conventions, better processes, so that's super cool.
I'm wondering in terms of digital trends you are seeing, what are top digital trends you are seeing today that are helping you to do those two things and are they different?

Joe Mineo:
Yeah, so a lot of it is looking at each platform and how it's risen or diminished over time. So for example, sun East Federal Credit Union, they've been around for a long time, they're a local credit union in the Delaware Valley in case anyone international is listening between Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, they have locations throughout and they were looking to engage and educate younger folks about financial literacy and the benefit of their credit unions, which can be hard because everyone that's familiar with a credit union that's above the age of 40 knows the impact and value. They're not a bank, they do a lot more, they do different things and so they had to communicate that to a group of people that have no idea what's going on. So we help them build a social strategy that leveraged short form content and short form content has been huge in terms of trends over the past few years.

Everyone's kind of shifting over to it. Even LinkedIn had a little stint with LinkedIn stories that kind of disappeared, but platform to platform, we had to find stuff that works and it was fast flexible and it produced over 200 leads organically. We weren't even spending a lot of money just because that was kind of how we wanted to do it. We wanted to build up their audience in a younger way. We didn't want to rely on ads so much because the ad market shifts constantly and the only way to make sure that things are stable is to establish that organic content presence with a new market.

Jessica Gondolfo:
Interesting. Do you think that a lot of companies are going to use that short form? When you say short form content, do you mean both video and written content or is it a blend of both? What kind of short form content?

Joe Mineo:
Yeah, so actually it's a blend of both. For Sun East in particular, we did a lot of video for them. Their website is really just sign up for a membership and they have a lot of content and it's very digestible and naturally, so there wasn't much to do there.

Joe Mineo:
Another one of our big clients, who are big on the industrial chemical solutions side of things. They've started exploring thought leadership ads and thought leadership pieces on LinkedIn, which they have great blog content, they have lots of content around the sustainability of their products and how they communicate, how they're trying to change the world in a better way. And they've relied on taking thought leadership pieces from their c-suite. So it's coming directly from the leadership. It's not coming from any agency that could create content. It's coming from a one-to-one, and we're seeing really, really good results with that too. So shifting the message away from landing on a landing page and more towards going to this LinkedIn post from a c-suite person who's telling you directly, this is why I'm so passionate about helping to change the world, that's a big shift and that's been a big trend too. LinkedIn ever since they've released that piece of products is, I mean I've connected a lot more on those ads too. I'm seeing it a lot and it's working really well.

Jessica Gondolfo:
Does that mean the CTA of things are changing rather than posting ads which are like book now, buy now, learn more in my website, are more of the ads like, Hey, I want you to just absorb this content from a brand perspective and then attribution modeling to how that's getting into some kind of revenue stream is changing or are you still using that to drive some kind of conversion?

Joe Mineo:
There's definitely been a shift, as I kind of mentioned with third party pixels having less reliability, the shift has now gone from, I'd probably say if it was 60% conversion focused advertising or marketing and 40% or 30 or less percent brand, it's become more of a 50 50 and a 60 40 in the other way because we're starting to realize you need to speak to these people on a different level and conversions don't always happen seven to 30 days down the road, which is all we get to track with last click and all of those other attribution models, it takes a lot longer to do that stuff. So if you're upfront with the brand and you get people to kind realize and re-engage and refocus with that brand, the conversion likelihood happens a lot sooner down the road. So we can kind of shift those dollars and stretch them a little bit more.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's great. My performance team is going to love this because I'm coming from those very hard conversion days where I was like, we need this kind of landing page, but they've done such an amazing job with brand stuff for us. They were like, we got to do more video, we got to do more high level things that don't have those. And so even for me, I felt that was a shift for me that I had to become more comfortable with and it has, it's done really well for us, especially from that top line. So that's really interesting though from a trending thing, do you see that the same between I would say B2C and B2B? Do you see that being a very similar trend between both of them?

Joe Mineo:
I'd say yes. We don't do a ton of direct or retail or B2C at the moment, but the companies that we do work with do see that a little bit, a lot less on the B2C side just because I mean sometimes direct connections, if you're selling a product, a small commoditized product, that conversion can be very quick and you need to be within those seven to 30 day windows. But when it comes to B2B, all of that stuff like trying to drive applications to a private school that could take six months. So if you're staying in front of someone for six months, you need a better brand message. It can't just always be apply now. So we've kind of forced people in a way to shift because that's just how the market is. You have to follow your market and you have to know your audience and audiences are constantly shifting.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's super interesting. Yeah, I love that. I love, especially from the B2B side, I think that there's a lot of things that are changing and digital is such an interesting space for me. I usually play more in the revenue space, and so I love when we have things like this changing. when you're looking at data points across your daily, your monthly, weekly, quarterly, annually, whatever that cadence looks like for you, what data are you producing from a reporting standpoint that is telling you a, that you're on track and who are you giving that to?

Joe Mineo:
So the beautiful part about working with Supermetrics is I can pull everything. This is going to sound like an ad, but it's honest. We can pull everything. So we create custom dashboards that are catered to each client. Some clients, as you mentioned, are a little more in the weeds than others. The ones that are super in the weeds, we have 24 7 available reports. The daily that you look into would probably be spend and result rate. We give very high views on an overview page and internally we have a daily risk report that goes out to our accounts and my team and it ensures that our clients are spending within their means. Budgets are on track and paid campaigns are pacing to benchmark, and all of our benchmarking is done internally from all of the historical data that we have on a weekly basis. We might drill down a little bit more into keywords and creative spot trends, fix any erroneous deliveries of any of those bigger platforms that might push, for example, if we're testing a batch of creatives, but only one is getting a bulk of the impressions, this happens a lot on meta.

We might pause that one campaign or ad set or ad that's getting a ton of impressions just so that the other creatives can catch up and we can get a more fair view on things. So we manipulate the systems within our reporting because we have to on a monthly basis. Click to website sessions is a huge, huge piece since a lot of platforms have been complaining about, again, pixels, bot traffic. And while we can't do much outside of reporting those problems and complaining about it, we can at least set baselines for what to expect from campaigns. So for example, LinkedIn used to see about 80% of their clicks land on a website. Twitter was in the 10 to 20% and it probably hasn't gotten better. We stopped advertising on Twitter altogether because of that whole problem and because we were seeing such a discrepancy in the reporting. So for a campaign that was reporting a hundred clicks, we were only seeing 10 to 20 actually land on page. And so that's not good. And when we look at that at a monthly basis, we're like, okay, we can shift this. We can set better expectations for clients and more accurately predict how to shift that or tweak website copy or figure out what to do when that baseline deviates.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's interesting. When you are looking at the creative side of it, does that help you become more strategic with what those creative campaigns are going to be in terms of what is next to come or what your sun's setting, what's resonating? Are you able to then use that for brand strategy?

Joe Mineo:
A hundred percent. A lot of what we do when it comes to AB testing or testing a whole batch of creatives because something clients, the really great clients step back and they're like, all right, create a whole bunch of stuff and throw it against a wall and we'll see what sticks. And so we get that opportunity on that weekly report. We usually do it a week out because sometimes within a couple of days you don't get solid results. So after about a week when things are running, we can figure out, okay, this isn't working, this is working, this is kind of just throttled, so let's pause that and let's come back to it a little bit later when it's a little bit tighter and the clients have a little more focused of a creative vision, it really does pinpoint, is it messaging that's really mattering?

Is it the color of the creative? There was one instance where they had produced a whole video series and then they tested it against the static images that they ran in the past campaign. And those static images actually did better because this was for a private school, it was featuring one of the students very prominently on stage with a spotlight, and it was just, I guess a really good connection to the audience that we were targeting. They were like, I could see my kid in that position shining on that stage. And so that was kind of the story that we wove and then we moved away from video, went back to static and still had some video to test against, but it started creating this feedback loop of what can we glean from what's doing best and how do we implement it in the future to continue to move, optimize and optimize and optimize to a point where we figure it out, but still constantly test to do what's better, like you said with your team.

Jessica Gondolfo:
Yeah, I think that that's a great example though of how data itself can help you connect with your audience. If we see for the longest time everyone's like video's there, video's there, video's there, but obviously this particular case, their audience resonated on something different and maybe it was like, Hey, I want to see my, that's the shot that I want to see of my child on the stage and it wasn't so much of the campus video kind of thing. So maybe that is, and I think that is a great way that data's able to connect to your buyer that I think a lot of people kind of overlook.

Joe Mineo:
Definitely. And it's also we come from the angle of just because you do a video series and it might not perform well now doesn't mean that you can't recut it and do something else differently or it out on organic. So we're constantly trying to say, don't feel bad about the results. Feel good that you tested something and that you figured out something new about your campaign to push your brand forward. So it's always constantly a positive message to say trying something is better than not trying something

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's super fair. How long do you normally wait? Are you like, we waited X amount of time and now we're going to make the decision to move back to that static campaign and shift the strategy from this video being organic? What's your sweet spot?

Joe Mineo:
I think it all depends on the deadline. If for example, we're a month out, I'd probably shift it with about three weeks to go. That way there's enough time for that shift to actually set in. We have a week to get results back and to see what the test looks like side by side. If it's a little bit longer out, we could act within a month. It really does depend on that

Jessica Gondolfo:
Deadline, depends on that. Yeah, that's really interesting. I know that you touched on Supermetrics and how you're kind of using it, but I'd love to understand your, before you maybe became a customer of Supermetrics, what drove you to the decision? What is that before and after look like for you?

Joe Mineo:
Yeah, so this was a painful journey I'd say. So when I inherited the role, it was July 20 and we're talking in April of 2024. It was all Google sheets and Google Slides and PowerPoints and Excels and I had to export all of the data and I remember going to my CEO and saying, Hey, I need an intern just because I need to export all of this stuff. I need to cleanse it. We didn't have a ton of naming conventions or standardize anything, and I was just like, I can't deal with comments in sheets. I need to be able to talk to my account managers. Set up a process where we can do this at scale because our business wanted to grow. And I was sitting in the middle of a report and I was really frustrated and I was pulling all this stuff from slides and I sat there and I was like, there's got to be a better way.

How do you get data from point A to point B without having to constantly export it? And Supermetrics came up and I was like, all right, this is okay. And I was trying to see how much I could do myself, and I realized that ETL extract transform load is very difficult to do yourself when you don't have any coding knowledge or even know where to execute that code. I didn't know anything about BigQuery, I didn't know anything about data. I just knew that it was really painful to do these things and you couldn't schedule exports. I don't know why any of these platforms don't allow you to schedule exports, but it's good for supermetrics. Good. So after finding Supermetrics out, I had the conversation, we were like, okay, it's X amount of dollars, how much time will it save? And that was the catalyst for everything.

After that, it was like I was spending two weeks setting up a dozen reports or so, and the first two weeks of the month we're setting up the ads, talking to the clients, talking about the reports, and then the last two weeks of the month we're doing the reports. And as a person who worked in broadcast radio, they will tell you there's dozens and dozens of clients on the radio at any point in time. I hated doing that. That's probably why I left that job because reporting just bogged me down so much. And I was like, how do I take this off my plate? We got Supermetrics and instantly I felt that relief. We bought the API product, which drove all of the data into Looker Studio. At the time it was Data Studio and it cut down I'd say probably 50%. So I was spending out a week building these reports and it was starting to kind of shift into, alright, how do I template these out so that I can create reports at scale?

And so I started doing that and it cut down even more because now it's like I can build a dashboard that's the same report every time. It'll be fine, everything will be great. And I got down to reports within a week and everyone was super happy about that. I was super happy about that. I could talk to more clients, business could start growing a little bit. I had more capacity and we'll get into more about that, but what eventually led me into the BigQuery solution was growing the business to a point where we couldn't rely on the APIs anymore. And if anyone that's worked with the API product probably knows there comes a point in time where if you query the Facebook API certain amount of times during the day or Google or any of those APIs, there are limits. It could be an hourly limit, it could be a minute limit, it could be a daily limit.

When you hit a daily limit, Twitter had a daily limit, it just stops working. So the API just crashes, you have a bunch of wrenches on your report and you can't report for the rest of the day. You have to wait. And what we were experiencing, it wasn't us that was part of the problem, it was the nature of how we had built the reports to be friendly for consumers. So our clients were looking at the reports so many times and sharing it with stakeholders and doing exactly what we wanted them to do, but they were breaking it because of the APIs. And so we were like, all right, we need more uptime. We need to make sure that this is consistent. We need to make sure our historical data is safe while you could pull all that stuff back around. The same time that we shifted was when Facebook and most other companies announced that they were only going to keep a certain amount of data in your system at a time.

So everything prior to, I think we signed on in 2020 or 2021 for BigQuery or 2022, something like that. Everything prior to that, you only had about 14 months, and then you lost everything before 2018 and everything before 2019 on a rolling basis. And so it was like, all right, clients now don't have access to their historical data now they have no access to everything because of the APIs breaking. So BigQuery was the natural progression because we had to keep all that data safe stored with a hundred percent uptime, and now they can access everything, they can benchmark properly, and it's been a blessing ever since.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's amazing. First of all, I'm so happy that we have been able to save you so much time because I guess that this looks like, I mean, overall it's probably saving you 70% of your time on your reporting, if I have that right?

Joe Mineo:
Yeah. And so another shift I forgot to mention was when we went to API, we went from API to BigQuery that cut it down even further because I was able to start transforming the data. And that's when I started teaching myself sql. I was like, all right, beyond data blends, which are extremely difficult to do in Looker Studio and Supermetrics has a wonderful product coming out to solve that problem, I had to solve it myself because there wasn't a product to work with and I was able to create all of these models that crunched all of the numbers and kept them in a nice neat format. And I didn't have to create filters for every client. All I had to do in terms of maintenance is just onboard clients, offboard clients and just update their naming convention and SQL and everything comes through perfectly. So now I can spend creating a dashboard doesn't take as long if it's custom. It's not taking two weeks, it's taking a day or so. It all depends on how complicated it is and it's the actual work involved of focusing on the client stuff as opposed to the data and the hard work of getting the APIs to work, seeing the data come through, struggling with data quality and all that stuff. So yeah, huge, huge time saver.

Jessica Gondolfo:
You mentioned the relationship between your account managers. How has Supermetrics impacted that relationship?

Joe Mineo:
Oh, it's been incredible. The account managers don't have to ask me as many questions, which is nice for me. It opens me up a little bit and I love my account managers. They're fantastic, they're wonderful people, but it empowers them. It really does help them become stronger in how they work too. They don't have to sit there and say like, Hey Joe, I need this report. They can go into their reports, pull the data themselves. We have that risk report, which has opened up a lot of doors too because I mean, one painful part about working at agencies with many people is just from talking to different people and it's almost like whisper down the lane where certain things get lost along the way. Sometimes campaigns run awry, you might spend more, you might spend less. So having the ability to have all of this data at a fingertips length, they can now dive in and see where their campaigns are and correct errors along the way. Let's say they had a really bad Monday and they told me that the budget was 500 bucks when it should have been 300 campaigns for a week. They look on Tuesday, Hey Joe, update that budget really quickly because we could be running into a problem. It's already updated, problem solved, we don't have to worry about having a problem at the end of the week. So that empowerment has helped in so many different ways and it's just been huge for our company.

Jessica Gondolfo:
Do you feel like that also plays a part in retaining clients because you are able to give that?

Joe Mineo:
Definitely. Definitely. There's a conversation that I'm having right now with a client where they didn't have access to their historical data and they were just struggling with reporting in general, and they're kind of completely tearing down their whole organizational structure from reporting and ads and they're trying to build up from the ground up and they realize that, hey, we can ask for historical data and we can have that in-house and we can report on it and build all these complex things and build all these metrics that relate to our business as opposed to getting the cookie cutter approach that other products might attempt to solve for. And it's just been extremely beneficial. Those clients trust you more, they see more of the benefit of having that all in-house. And we work as an in-house partner in quotes, because we don't intend to ever, we let them keep their data, they have all the ownership of their data, we house it, but if they ever want it, we can export it and send it over to 'em and we can delete it on our side. So being able to provide that as a service and allow them to not be vendor locked is huge for them. And it again, builds that trust, helps them come back and then they're not vendor locked, but at the same time they're like, we don't want to go to someone and go through all the stress all over again because you guys have built such a great practice for us.

Jessica Gondolfo:
No, that's a really good point from acquisition strategy because the second that you kind of tell someone that if you leave us all your historicals are gone, it creates that pause. You do, you get a pause where you're like, Hey, okay, I like what they offer. They can do really cool things, but if ever we were going to make a move, that's it. And it does. It makes you have a trust issue upfront. So I think that's really cool, and I love that this has become kind of now on a service side for you that you can kind of add this in. Is that from when you were working before and how you were kind of bundling either your packaging or your pricing strategy or your client strategy, are you able to now manipulate the data portion of that? You can make that a service now?

Joe Mineo:
We certainly could. I don't think it's right to charge someone to access their data, their data at the end of the day. And if they wanted to go into meta business manager and export their stuff, they could. But we provide that as just a way of

Jessica Gondolfo:
A courtesy, almost

Joe Mineo:
As a courtesy to kind of say, we have this. And there was one client that they're actually building their whole own ecosystem of dashboards. They're a massive conglomerate and they're trying to keep everything in house. We only work with their corporate side and they were like, Hey, can you provide all the paid data and organic data for social? And I was like, yeah, sure. Export it, send it. And they're like, that's it. And they work with a whole bunch of different agencies and we were the first to respond the fastest to respond. I'm like, yeah, it should be that easy for you. So again, while we don't charge for that, I don't charge for that. It takes such little effort to do once you have the right processes in order. And this was all again, unlocked because of how we built it.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's awesome. I have one other question that I want to ask you, and maybe it's like advice for people who are listening or other analysts. I want to know from your perspective, what would you tell another analyst if you're not doing this, you got to do it today. What is that piece of advice?

Joe Mineo:
Asking the hard questions. A lot of agencies build their business around, okay, reporting is just this thing that we do. We tell you what the results are and they're happy with that and a lot of clients are happy with that. But sometimes when you're building campaigns, not every campaign's going to run the way you want it to. And while I said we take a positive approach in terms of telling people when things go wrong or there's failures, failures are good. Asking hard questions about your campaign should be a process that you go through asking why did this campaign deliver or under deliver or over deliver in a bad way? You need to create that system and that feedback loop to help drive the data in a direction that teaches you how to build from it. So asking hard questions. Another thing that I might say is ask, look beyond the CTR.

Sometimes beyond click-through rate, there are other metrics that can say a lot about a campaign. For example, cost per thousand, cost per click, like I said earlier, with clicks to website sessions, clicks to download, asking those harder questions and connecting with the web team. There are web teams that are fantastic, there are web teams that are a little more closed off. Cracking the shell is part of the process. And if you're not asking those hard questions, you're not truly helping a client. You're just kind of pushing them in a direction that's more revenue driving for you. And at the end of the day, that's not going to retain the client. That's just going to be like, oh, you're just any other agency. You're not here to help us.

Jessica Gondolfo:
That's awesome. Joe, it's been a pleasure having you. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Joe Mineo:
Of course. Anytime.